F4 marches on?

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broadside
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Post by broadside »

Dermot Healy wrote: As for Mambo & Joomia they sound like lovely names for home built Mono cars and i look forward to seeing them on the grid.
I thought it was something you smoked before you wrote your adverts Dermot :lol:

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Post by AndyY »

schomosport wrote:F750 caters for a significantly different type of car to Mono. The (complex and detailed) regulations are readily available from their website.
Some key differentiators:
Limited engine choice - mostly 1800cc or elderly 2000cc 8 valvers
4 speeds, no LSDs
significantly different minimum weights 505-520kg for most cars, 455kg for bike engined cars

Grids mostly full of recent Van Diemens and Mygales at present if that floats your boat.

Me, I think the two series are complementary rather than rivals, depends on what you want to drive.
I am afraid I don't agree. I would expect that most people thinking of trying club level single seaters will probably look around and make a choice between FF1600, F Jedi, Mono and F4. They'll decide what money they have to spend on a car and spend on something that meets their perception of "value for money". A strange concept in motorsport, I know. Some will plum for FF1600 because they like ancient technology, some will plum for F Jedi (or maybe Mono 1200) because they like the bike engined thing but for many they'll make a straight choice between Mono (maybe Mono Classic) and F4 and in the early stages I bet they won't care about 4/5 speed boxes or LSDs etc, they'll just want to know which has the better image (and the fact that F4 is called F4 is a significant aid to understanding what its all about), which has the best track time and which has the cheaper entry fees. Mono compares very well in most of these respects but 750mc have a higher profile and F4 is doing its bit to be part of that. Some people considering club single seaters may not even know that Mono exists. God, even the so called club editor of Autosport a few weeks ago was waxing lyrical about the benefits of the new bike engined Revelation series for entry level single seater motorsport and Mono wasn't even mentioned as an alternative.

Complacency may lead to problems in the future. I will be delighted if I am wrong.

Like it or not, F4 has spotted that the F Renault contingent in BARC FRenault are homeless in 2009 and have invited them in with a class of their own (and I understand that gear ratios will be free). Even if only 2 or 3 people make that move, it is 2 or 3 people added to their grid and 2 or 3 people not on Monos.

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samier
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Post by samier »

I would like to make an important point here. Nothing to do with the website.

It seems obvious some of the directors (not you Stephen) have taken my comments as a personal attack as a result I got a pm telling me that I have no right or position to comment and that my suggestion for an improved website was insulting.

First of all, I have done one race, logistics/time prevented me from doing more this season. If this is the attitude of the senior members of the club that I cannot make suggestions or comments I will not bother making any from now on. Very dissapointing!

My comments were not of a bad nature or to ridicule the club or the people who make personal effort and time toward the running of the club.

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phuston
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Post by phuston »

I think that Samier is overestimating the sensitivity of the directors and has probably demonstrated that he is also suffering from the complaint!

Two good points have been made by directors.

The first is that one of the main functions of the club's website is to disseminate information to competitors and that for this task, many would consider content to be more important than style. Additionally, the work and disruption involved in changing the website during a season is probably not warranted, it is far better to change style at the annual update.

The second point is that those not interested in IT are probably using steam powered computers. I know that IT specialists will find this hard to believe but the club administrator posts out paper copies of entry forms and Startline to competitors who lack a computer! Thus introducing a whistle and bells update of the website may be counterproductive if it exceeds the capacity of some of the machines currently accessing the site. This could well include my machine!
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WEB SITE!

Post by AVIT! »

Just a note that in my opinion the web site is great!

What the club needs are bums in race seats and paying race entries to get our grids fuller than F4! i have raced more than my fair share with both clubs and mono is better in more ways than just the web site!


So samier Shamoan !!!!!!!

Get off your office seat and into your race car seat and support the club as a member should!


He He!

AVIT!
Avit! motorsport taking club racing back to its routes by beating wallets on a small budget!

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samier
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Post by samier »

I have been doing IT for the best part of 16 years, If I had been racing for 16 years that would have been another story!! :)

Of course I would like to supprt the club, I didnt know a CMS system was being worked on, I even considered in offering to help.....

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Post by Russ »

Calm down chaps, its only a bit of fun.

The problem with forums and emails, they can be very easy to misread the true sentiments behind the postings!

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Post by tony edwards »

AndyY wrote:
schomosport wrote:F750 caters for a significantly different type of car to Mono. The (complex and detailed) regulations are readily available from their website.
Some key differentiators:
Limited engine choice - mostly 1800cc or elderly 2000cc 8 valvers
4 speeds, no LSDs
significantly different minimum weights 505-520kg for most cars, 455kg for bike engined cars

Grids mostly full of recent Van Diemens and Mygales at present if that floats your boat.

Me, I think the two series are complementary rather than rivals, depends on what you want to drive.
I am afraid I don't agree. I would expect that most people thinking of trying club level single seaters will probably look around and make a choice between FF1600, F Jedi, Mono and F4. They'll decide what money they have to spend on a car and spend on something that meets their perception of "value for money". A strange concept in motorsport, I know. Some will plum for FF1600 because they like ancient technology, some will plum for F Jedi (or maybe Mono 1200) because they like the bike engined thing but for many they'll make a straight choice between Mono (maybe Mono Classic) and F4 and in the early stages I bet they won't care about 4/5 speed boxes or LSDs etc, they'll just want to know which has the better image (and the fact that F4 is called F4 is a significant aid to understanding what its all about), which has the best track time and which has the cheaper entry fees. Mono compares very well in most of these respects but 750mc have a higher profile and F4 is doing its bit to be part of that. Some people considering club single seaters may not even know that Mono exists. God, even the so called club editor of Autosport a few weeks ago was waxing lyrical about the benefits of the new bike engined Revelation series for entry level single seater motorsport and Mono wasn't even mentioned as an alternative.

Complacency may lead to problems in the future. I will be delighted if I am wrong.

Like it or not, F4 has spotted that the F Renault contingent in BARC FRenault are homeless in 2009 and have invited them in with a class of their own (and I understand that gear ratios will be free). Even if only 2 or 3 people make that move, it is 2 or 3 people added to their grid and 2 or 3 people not on Monos.
Andyy has got it about right there. i'm looking at racing single seaters next year (after 5 years of saloons). being in the north i've only 2 choices, f4 or mono. being a northerner also means i dont like to travel too far from home, so in an ideal world i'd like to buy a car that would be eligible for both championships, so i can pick and choose which rounds to do.
I'd quite like a Jedi, they look nice, are devilishly fast,but i really dont like the idea of my feet being so far forward of the front wheels... i know they are safe etc.. but at a little over 6 foot i suspect they'de be a tad small anyway...
i'd really like a fvl, but worry about ageing mechanicals and also eligibility for f4...
i definatley dont want a ff1600 (sorry they just dont 'do it' for me ...
a later us spec ff would be good, but i suspect i'd be getting out of my depth conversion and setup wise.
so what else would do me? a renault maybe?

like the man said, number of gears, lsd etc... isnt really that important. value for money, profile, etc is what counts. f4 dont even have a forum do they?

sorry if i went on a bit. :oops: :oops:

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broadside
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Post by broadside »

You need to speak to Dermot, he'll have all the help and advice you need to find he right car..... See Dermot Bits

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Post by schomosport »

That was the point I was trying to make - people choose cars with their hearts as much as their heads. Then work out what series it is eligible for. Biggest mistake many make is buy the wrong car then complain bitterley that there isn't a series whose regulations cater for their particular car.

For example if you fancy a FVL its 2000cc and got 5 gears and possibly an LSD too. No way I can see that fits the current 750MC regs. So, if you buys your FVL you had betty be happy with Mono. Or budget for some pretty extensive changes. That's why you need to understand what you are buying.

Lets face it offering a way in to F4 for FVL and F3 cars is 750 MC's way of tryingto bolster THEIR grids. And who can blame them - its already hard enought rying to organise a race series as it is and keep a financial head above water and its not going to get any easier in 2009. But like I said, they've got a grid full of Fords and REnaults so don't think they are going to worry too much about how or if the FVL can be fitted in and be competitive.

(Don't get me wrong, I have no axe to gring with 750MC there are a good well organised club and I have raced with them myself in my time.)

Oh and lastly nothing in my post was meant to suggest Mono could afford to be (or are) complacent. Oh no, no, no. But I stillthink 750MC/Mono are different strokes for different folks/cars.
Schomosport

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Post by phuston »

All this discussion and not a mention of Mono1800. But we all know that it is the most sensible way to start. :lol:
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Post by Dermot Healy »

Differences between Mono & 750MC F4?

F4 people can just look SO SO miserable...but they tend not to winge that much.

Mono people can look a bit happier.....but don't they just love to complain.

A useful role model for both?

Historic FF2000...

....they look happy, don't winge, & are even nice to each other on their Forum!

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Post by samier »

off topic, but why does mono 2000 rules not allow fuel injection setup? surely its more expensive to start buying carbs and ecus etc... an extra cost of 1200-1500 pounds.

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Post by Nick Harrison »

I see you have passed the first test of being a real racing driver....never read any regulations. You can run the original manufacturer's specification fuel injection in Mono 2000, 5.7.1.a.

However if you did you would have a power disadvantage.

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Post by AndyY »

I started this thread off because I am concerned that F4 has spotted the potential to attract new members to its grids that Mono could have also attracted. F4 has spotted that the F Renaults have lost their main series and have offered them a home where thay can have their own class; they have actively courted them. In contrast Mono accepts F Renaults (but they have never been truly competitivefor some reason) but they are supposed to fit in to the existing class system. I think new or existing F Renault drivers will go to F4. I think that Mono could have proposed the same F Renault Class but its too late now.

Moving forward, Mono has rightly been discussing the future but the debate seems to have been about equivalisation between existing Mono cars and Club F3 and F Renault 2000 cars. I know that the aim is to try to keep existing Mono cars competitive but Mono have already set a (good) precedent of allowing individual class based competition with Mono Classic.

I think that it wouild be more starightforward to move to a 4 class system in "Mono 2000" - F3 cars to F3 rules, F Renault 2000 to their rules, the existing main Mono 2000 class and Mono classic. All would have to run at 40mm. Sure the current cars may not win but they could fight for class victories anyway and probably have more fun by battling with the slower cars from the class in front anyway. Its up to each individual driver, then, to choose his car and class to suit his budget, technical ability and talent. There are far more F3 and F Reanult 2000 cars about than there are Mono spec cars, and its easier to buy and run a car in its current configuration than to try to convert something, and there is therefore far more potential to attract new people in to the club and move forward/ protect the future. The 40 mm ride height will have some element of equalisation anyway.

I am sure that there are plenty of people who will say I'm missing the point somehow but i think that is sometimes easier to keep things simple in the first place and adjust later if necessary.

And by the way, I agree with Patrick - Mono 1800 is the best way to start and I am, frankly, astonished that Mono 1800 hasn't got full grids of its own, given the number of F Ford Zetecs that were produced. Perhaps Mono should also react to current trends in main stream F Ford and work out pretty rapidly how it can accomodate F Ford Duratec cars in the very near futuie, because they will soon be available to the clubman competitor. Get in first before F4!!!!

Regards

Andy

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