CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

General Paddock Chatter
daxward
Marshal
Marshal
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 5:54 pm

CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby daxward » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:41 am

Hi everyone,

As many of you may know, Cartek, who manufacture rain lights, have always advocated making this safety device dual function, i,e, ON for a wet race but also FLASHING to indicate when the driver has stalled on the grid or driving slowly with a problem.

Now that Monoposto has followed F3 Cup in requiring all rain lights to be flashing rather than static during wet races, I contacted CARTEK to hear their thoughts on that decision.

It was no surprise that not only were they aware of the regulation change but were already hard at work developing a new light which would not only comply with the flashing F3 type requirement but also incorporate a hazard warning effect too. Apparently this new rain light will be supplied with a 3 position switch allowing the driver to select off for a dry race, F3 flashing for a wet race and a 3rd mode which will be some type of noticeably different flashing pattern which they hope will reduce the risk of rear end shunts when a car has stalled on the grid.

The good news also is that the new light will be no more expensive than their existing F3 light and they're offering a discount to Monoposto and F3 Cup drivers. Apparently Cartek will be at Autosport, booth 8244, where they're hoping to demo the light to interested drivers.

All the best

Dax

User avatar
mwalters
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby mwalters » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:53 am

I must've missed something...

I knew the rain light spec had been changed (for good reason), but I wasn't aware it had to be a flashing type? I've bought a light last year on the specs that were posted, but this isn't a flashing one! Has this been a waste of money for me now???

Is there a relay or something that I can use to make it flash if this is the case, mine is the Lifeline – LL421-100-005 model listed below.

Article seen on startline....

Chairman of the Technical Committee Russ Giles updates the rain light position:

To assist in the smooth introduction of a rain light list next year we would like to give the members as much advance notice as possible of suitable product.
The following lights will be included in the list of approved products.

Cartek – CK-LR-F3

Lifeline – LL421-100-005

Melectronics – F3-2009

Others may be added, but you can be sure that these will be on the list.

Russ Giles


Matt.
- you only live once! -

User avatar
andrewcliffe
Respected elder statesman
Respected elder statesman
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:33 am
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby andrewcliffe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:03 am

Flash mode, see page 4 of instructions, here:

http://www.lifeline-fire.co.uk/content/ ... 1-2015.pdf
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

User avatar
mwalters
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby mwalters » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:34 am

Hmmm,

I need to check the numbers on my rain light again, as mine looks nothing like that one! :lol:
- you only live once! -

User avatar
andrewcliffe
Respected elder statesman
Respected elder statesman
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:33 am
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby andrewcliffe » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:35 pm

I think the key thing will be the presence of a green wire or not.

If not and you've been mis-sold something, Cartek have a switch to make a static light flash.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

Dermot Healy
Mechanic
Mechanic
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:59 pm

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby Dermot Healy » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Matt....If the Rainlight is the one i supplied to you some time ago then it will not flash. I believe the Lifeline link Andrew has supplied refers to a new model (though possibly sharing the same part number) introduced by Lifeline to meet the new fashion for flashing lights. At the time of supply the item I provided met all the requirements and regulations in force, and there was to my knowledge no proposals for Mono to adopt a requirement for flashing lights under consideration at that time. It was supplied at a significant discount.

However - as i see the phrase 'mis-sold' appears in this thread perhaps i should make it clear that if you care to return the item to me i will refund your payment..

.Dermot

jimblockley
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:59 pm
Location: Stroud

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby jimblockley » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:43 pm

I feel these flashing lights are very distracting at the start and potentially to cause an incident, i think some drivers will get mesmerized by them and mis the red light going out at the start.

I agree with Dermott where did the flashing light rule appear from.

perhaps we should have the option of non flashing light as long as it is as powerfully as the mandatory one.

i have a very powerful Dallara non flashing one.

teamfoxracing
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby teamfoxracing » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:24 pm

I turned up to the Walter Hayes trophy with my ff1600 with a flashing cartek "f3" spec rain light
And I was told I could not use it because not everyone had a flashing rain light lucky for me I kept
My old light and bracket


I am sure the committee men and women have consulted the msa and Alastair ??
Dan fox

User avatar
mwalters
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 8:19 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby mwalters » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:50 am

I have no problem at all with What Dermot has supplied, and I do not feel I have been mis-sold, it complied with the regulations at the time, however I am failing to see where the flashing element of the regulations were introduced or changed, I cant seem to find any mention of it!
- you only live once! -

TFR
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:05 pm
Location: Warminster
Contact:

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby TFR » Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:33 am

I have great sympathy for people who find themselves in the same position as Matt and his now defunct Rain light, i also find myself in the same position as many other members with a bright but cheap LED rainlight. "Where did this come from ?" , From the board?, from facebook?, certainly not from consultation from the members who are now faced with more expense on top of the now mandatory Hans Device !
I am sure we will be told that it is for safety reasons, but if as a club we enforce it are we being naiive, should someone blame the flashing light for an accident we are surely open to being sued, it is not up to us as a club to make safety rules this should be the remit of the MSA under whose regs we race, We do need to think these things through and not loose sight of the fact that the club should be run for the benefit of the members( who own it)
My answer would be bright LED rainlight (£10) for 2016 and consultation re flashing rain light during the year, and it may be worth mentioning that a flashing light can, and has been construed, as a broken one !!

Geoff (Flash) Fern
Team Fern Racing.
Geoff Fern #7 and #77,
Sarah Harvey-Fern

User avatar
andrewcliffe
Respected elder statesman
Respected elder statesman
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:33 am
Location: Norwich, UK
Contact:

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby andrewcliffe » Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:17 pm

The awful conditions at Silverstone GP 2015 early last season, which was where Andrew Colebrooke encountered the slowing Reynard of Marcus Sheard in qualifying, resulting in a trip to hospital for Andrew, and two mangled cars, prompted a lot of competitors to question the effectiveness of their rain lights - the cost of a rain light is a fraction of the cost of a rebuild.

The thread started by Nigel Davers shortly afterwards can be found here (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1935) , but I know there were plenty of discussions up and down the paddock on the day whilst it was fresh in the mind, with the general consensus being that the type permitted by the letter of the MSA regulations were woefully lacking.

I remember it because the calls for better rain lights (and hence some expenditure) were coming from the competitors rather than the board. Its not often that happens.

The MSA regulation is as follows:

K5.1 A rearward facing red warning light of a minimum of 21 watts, with surface area minimum 20cm2, maximum 40cm2, or of 21 watts with a surface area minimum of 50cm2 and with lens and reflector to EU Standards, must be located within 10cm of the centre line of the vehicle and be clearly visible from the rear.

Vehicles fitted with full width bodywork may alternatively use two lights equally located about the vehicle centre line. An alternative light unit of equal or enhanced constant luminosity or LED lights that are either homologated by the FIA or comply with relevant EU Regulations may be used.

5.2. The warning light must be switched on when visibility conditions are reduced, or as detailed within championship and/or event regulations, or when so instructed by the Clerk of the Course.


F3 Cup mandated a flashing rain light from the start of 2014 season (from memory), and the ultra bright ones mandated for F3 Cup really are good - I remember Tristan saying that after a wet session at Donington in 2012, where he was behind two other cars, he could see the flashing rain light of the car at the head of the pack, but not the normal Dallara type rain light (better than most) of the car immediately in front of him. I don't think any of the F3 Cup drivers have been mesmerised by the flashing lights on the grid, and I don't think there have been any accidents that have been blamed on not being able to see the car in front.

I must admit from watching trackside, the flashing type seems to be more visible than the static type of equal brightness.

In August, this was posted on Startline: http://startline.org.uk/slol89/rainlights.htm

The draft regulations were published at the end of November, section 5(10) and appendix 6(7) being the salient points.

5(10).1 ?
1. Exterior Lighting
i. Not required except as required by 5(10).1 2
2. Rear Fog Light
i. A flashing rear LED fog light as specified in Appendix 6.7 is mandatory and must be mounted in accordance with K5 of the current MSA Yearbook.

3. Batteries
i. Free but must comply with K14 of the current MSA Yearbook.
4. Generators
i. Optional


and

Appendix 6.7 APPROVED LIST OF REAR FOG LIGHTS
Cartek CK-LR-F3
Lifeline LL421-100-005
Melectronics F3-2009

Models from the above manufacturers, from the same range and with solid
and flashing operation that give the same luminous output and visibility can
be used however these must be used in flashing mode only during
qualification and racing. The use of a flashing mode switch with a solid light is
acceptable.



Maybe for some the last sentence of that regulation is all they need. Talk to Cartek.

I'm sure others will be along shortly with their tu'penneth worth, but I'm sure the Mono technical delegation would be happy to respond to peoples concerns.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

schomosport
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:42 pm
Location: Bedford
Contact:

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby schomosport » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:28 pm

I would strongly recommend that MRC ensure that they obtain written agreement from MSA that the regulation for the use of rain lights as contained in the 2016 MRC regulations is consistent with MSA K5.1 and K5.2 if they have not already done so.

Regulation is a synonym for requirement: much of my working life involves agreeing what engineering requirments that are incomplete/unclear/ambiguous or generally open to interpretation actually mean. The Blue Book contains many regulations in this category, K5.1 and K5.2 amongst them.

I note K5.1 says "enhanced constant luminosity" and switched on" - we need to get the arguments about whether or not a flashing light is "constant" or "switched on" resolved before the seaason starts, not afterwards. And don't assume that whatever MSVF3 are doing is a valid precedent - it might not be for Mono.
Schomosport

stevenconnor
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:04 am

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby stevenconnor » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:57 pm

I comment only on the question of MSA and scrutineer eligibility.

This below from the 2014 F3Cup regulations as endorsed/sanctioned/enforced by the MSA.
Reminder both series share the same MSA eligibility scrutineer.

5.10.5 An approved rearward facing warning light must be fitted of a type RED LED’s that flash continuously.
Only Cartek CK-LR-F3 or Melectronics F3_2009 can be used. See also 5.13.1.3


and the 2015 regulations equally approved by the MSA.


5.10.5 An approved rearward facing warning light must be fitted of a type RED LED’s that flash
continuously. Only Cartek CK-LR-F3 or Melectronics F3_2009 can be used. See also
5.13.1.3 ( which should probably be 5.13.1.4..... Steven )


2015 F3 Cup – Sporting & Technical Regulations
Issue ONE – 23.01.2015
Page 14 of 19
5.13.1.4 The car's rear light must be illuminated at all times when it is running on wet-weather tyres

Regulations are only published after receiving approval from the MSA.

stevenconnor
Recovery
Recovery
Posts: 63
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:04 am

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby stevenconnor » Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:07 pm

I have a Cartek non flashing light wired through the Cartek supplied switch which allows me to select to run it as a flashing light. This did not require any modifications to the car or wiring - Light went on the end of the existing single live wire (and earth wire to chassis) and switch just went in the single live line that goes to that light from my circuit breaker.

stevengriffin
Mechanic
Mechanic
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:48 pm

Re: CARTEK Flashing Rain Lights

Postby stevengriffin » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:22 am

So d I need to buy a flashing light or not? Must admit all this passed me by but there again I am a bit dopey.


Return to “Paddock Chatter”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests