MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

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tristancliffe
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by tristancliffe »

The jist is, always finish a race with 3 litres of fuel onboard. If you have less, then it's not the end of the world, but will make it easier if you get tested.

Worry about the actual testing procedure if you get asked. Which you won't be. Unless you make a habit of breaking mirrors.
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by Nick Harrison »

tristancliffe wrote:The jist is, always finish a race with 3 litres of fuel onboard. If you have less, then it's not the end of the world, but will make it easier if you get tested.

Worry about the actual testing procedure if you get asked. Which you won't be. Unless you make a habit of breaking mirrors.
Now that F3 engines are allowed in fuel sampling may be an issue. Under Mono regs 100RON is the max and in recent times probably no gain from running any other however with an F3 engine there will be gains to be had from running 102RON or 105RON. Any engine coming from CF3 will be mapped to 102RON.

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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by RedRedWine »

Sorry No Phil Moore Allowed on his request !!!!!!!!!!
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by tristancliffe »

Phil, if that was your friend, has written very similar stuff on this forum before (but a bit more briefly) and, for once, I couldn't agree with him more!

Edit - Didn't read the footnote. On that he is wrong - octane DOES allow power output to increase, as it allows more compression or more ignition advance before knocking takes place.

Edit2 - Nick is right on what he says I believe.
Last edited by tristancliffe on Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by Nick Harrison »

[quote="RedRedWine

Phil Moore Comment Deleted

Dear old Basildon Bond clearly has an unrivaled knowledge of the fuel industry which unfortunately is not matched by his comprehension of the ICE.

There is probably no perceptable gain to be had in power with a Mono 2000 engine from running anything other than 95RON, unless of course you are intent on running an illegal motor that is squeezing its mixture at more than 10.5:1.

I am not suggesting for a moment that the act of running 102RON in an F3 engine necessarily brings any gain in power but it is what it allows you to do with the CR and the ignition timing that does which is why you have a different ignition map for 98RON to 102RON. You have to remember that other than the air intake size F3 is basically a free formula. Run pump fuel with a 102RON map and you will put a hole in a piston.

An F3 car running in Mono Formula will have to run 'pump fuel' to comply with our regs but would get a performance advantage from running 102RON because of the more aggressive map that could be run whereas there would be minimal performance advantage if any for someone running in Mono 2000.

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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by tristancliffe »

From our lovely Hobbit Bond...

Phil Moore Deleted. The best thing for him !!!!!!!!!!


Now we're getting into the interesting bits...

He claims that RON is a calculation and not a recorded test method. However Research Octane Number (RON) is in fact a comparison between the tested fuel and a mixture of iso-octane and n-heptane in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions. Thus it IS a recorded test method.

MON (Motor Octane Number) is a similar test that uses variable ignition timing and a faster engine speed - indeed the MON is actually a slightly better indicator of real world performance against knocking.

There is also a Road Octane Number (or Anti-Knock Index), which is the average of the two, and is the figure used frequently in the States. Iso-octane isn't the most knock-resistant 'fuel', and hence gasolines can achieve more than 100 octane ratings...

Derek also claims that bio-ethanol has a higher calorific value than 'normal' gasoline. I don't claim to have researched this especially carefully, but my understanding is that bio-ethanol has a calorific value of around 26 MJ/kg - this is the amount of energy in each kg of the stuff. An internal combustion engine isn't very efficient though, so don't ever expect to see that much power at your wheels!!! Regular (whatever that is, but all are going to be close to this figure) gasoline contains around 47 MJ/kg - quite a lot more per unit mass.

Phillip then tries to muddy the water by talking about 'burn', a rather ambiguous phrase that has more to do with inlet, exhaust and combustion chamber design than small percentage additions of Scotch. Perhaps I'll get an email from him defining what he means by 'burn'...

Thus, mixing gasoline with bio-ethanol will produce a fuel with a lower calorific value than that of 'pure' gasoline.

Also, bio-ethanol tends to separate out of the fuel quite quickly, and sinks to the bottom. The fluid is likely to damage seals, fuel lines and tanks, so do not leave it in your car any longer than you have to, or at the very least keep it diluted with as much normal fuel as you can.

The supposed benefits of bio-fuels is that they are not made from drilled crude oil, and is therefore somehow better for the environment - even though the emissions are pretty much the same, and you need more of it to get the same distance. And, as farms move over to produce lucrative fuels that governments like (which usually means they're not to be liked) food prices rise - see the price of wheats and corns in recent years! Your food costs have doubled, your emissions are the same, and this is apparently better for everyone. Hurrah.

Whoops, went off at a tangent there... Sorry.

However, ethanol (bio or otherwise) does have a high knock resistance, and is used to boost the octane of the primary fuel - hence your F3 race fuels having a small component of ethanol.

No doubt my Derek Kiwi will send more abusive messages on Facebook for writing this, but I think it's important to know that an oil trader doesn't necessarily understand much about oil just like a greengrocer doesn't understand the DNA inside a turnip.
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by broadside »

OH SUGAR!!!!!! I'VE BEEN RUNNING ON ESSO BLUE ALL SEASON!!!!!!!!! :lol:
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by Nick Harrison »

broadside wrote:OH SUGAR!!!!!! I'VE BEEN RUNNING ON ESSO BLUE ALL SEASON!!!!!!!!! :lol:
Ah those were the days. Two fuel tanks, start the Morris 8 Series E on petrol and then switch over to TVO 'borrowed' from the farm next door.

Long live the Esso Blee Dooler!

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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by broadside »

I think we've got Tristan googling that one ....... :D
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by tristancliffe »

You hadn't actually... :?

But I will tomorrow :lol:
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by tristancliffe »

Please don't read the quote I posted earlier. Apparently it's copy writed (not copyrighted), and it is illegal for me to post it on the internet. But then he did send it to me, and did not ask that it was not reproduced, quoted, discussed or continued as part of the conversation it referenced, so I think it's safe to say that, actually, you can all read it.

Alternatively, I can paraphrase it, to which I don't think he'll own any copy writes or copyrights.
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Re: MSA Blue Book correction - Fuel sampling

Post by jimblockley »

Makes the point as to why any one would run an F3 engine in mono through choice.

this is one of the reasons that they were excluded in the first place when we ran avgas to stop them blowing up.

my ralt now sits here with a F3 vw engine but i am reluctant to run it, past experience tells me that its not if it blows up but when.

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