GRID SIZES

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Shakeyfinch
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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by Shakeyfinch »

karl wrote:
They state that while general testing throughout the year they have found 2lt cars can be a pain. The b.e.c cars charge through the corners and they get held up, I guess the 2ltr cars are quicker else where? I have been told it can get dangerous and have hurd of several crashes this year at general testing involving 2000cc type cars, a formula ford etc... with the 1000cc type cars involving corner speed.
When I have competed on a mixed grid i have found it to be the other way round - the b.e.c are faster on the straights and the 2000 winged cars quicker in the corners. But I did this many years ago and it has all got a bit pro now so might be different.

I don't think this has anything to do with any one being scared of other cars/drivers in other classses....if we were all seriously competitive and worried about coming up against a faster driver we'd have all been in the Cooper Tires BF3 race at Donington not Mono!

My understanding was, perhaps incorrectly, that the concern was one of safety and trying to avoid cars which are clearly fast in different parts of the track (whichever way round that may be) to race a flowing race with reduced risk of tripping over other cars.

If that is not the case and it actually really doesn't bother anyone lets put 'em together race in race out and see what happens. My guess would be a record year for the spares department .

Mark E Harrison.

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by AndyY »

Well the issue has made this weeks Autosport! Several column inches in the National Racing editorial no less. I doubt that Mono has achieved so much coverage in Autosport in quite a while. For those that haven't read it, Kevin Turner, the Autosport editor, watched his first mono race in a long time at Donington and wasn't over impressed by the differences in lap times & the racing in the two mono races; basically he thinks that from a racing spectacle point of view then the bike engined cars should race with the 2 litres and the smaller conventional engined cars should race together. He even implies that grid sizes may eventually benefit in the long run & I would certainly suggest that Mono 1600 & 1800 would benefit from being in their own race.

Safety has often been touted as a concern but as I said earlier that arguement seems to have been blown out of the water by the recent fact that Chris Woodhouse ran his Speads in a EuroBoss race at Brands and by the nature of the mixed grid at the Mallory non championship race. ie several bike engined car drivers seem to be perfectly happy to race with bigger carbon tubbed cars so maybe that is the way forward??

And as for car having different speads in different parts of the track, then I accept that's the case, but that is the case now when the 1800s sometimes race on the same grid as the 2 litres - then there are cars which are lapped relatively frequentley & have significantly different cornering speads due to have no aero but no one complains of safety then.

I should shut up really & run away to my Tin Top!
Andy Yeomans - former Mono 1800 and 2000 racer (!?). Now CSCC and aspiring Clubmans racer.

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by andrewcliffe »

I'm not sure how many of you managed to see any of the Monoposto support races, but I did. I didn't really think any of them were that exciting. I spent quite a lot of time at The Esses before the start / finish straight and also at the Old Hairpin and up/down the Craner Curves. Didn't see much in the way of over taking.

However watching the FFs and to some extent the Caterhams drift their way around corners in a somewhat balletic way was nice.

Also nice to see Damon Hill doing his Racing Dad bit by taking the slave battery to the assembly area.

I must admit that when faced with the choice of watching 11 GT cars circulate for 2 hours in the rain, or going home - I chose home! Only 9 cars finished.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

Shakeyfinch
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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by Shakeyfinch »

[quote="AndyY"]
And as for car having different speads in different parts of the track, then I accept that's the case, but that is the case now when the 1800s sometimes race on the same grid as the 2 litres - then there are cars which are lapped relatively frequentley & have significantly different cornering speads due to have no aero but no one complains of safety then.

quote]

I think the point is around two types of car which perform a similar lap time but by different means not about faster vs slower cars over a lap. I guess the theory is they would spend large parts of the race on the same patch of the tarmac but at different speeds as opposed to a 'normal lapping situation'? This would make the Chris Woodhouse argument slighly flawed (although Chris did probably keep up with most the EuroBoss cars!)

I haven't read autosport so can't comment on the editorial but perhaps he has a point, may be it is dull for the spectator but given that most rounds that mono and other ameteur club championships attend attract about 10 people i'm not sure the spectator is the prime stakeholder in this debate.

Perhaps the concern is a myth that we constantly talk about....if drivers really fancy mixing it up and are not concerned by, or don't believe in the safety argument, then perhaps they should attend the AGM and air their views?

Or if it is as boring as Autosport suggest, keep it the same, rename it F1 and we'll be on TV before the year is out.

MH

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by andrewcliffe »

The spectator quantity at the F3/GT was pretty dire - maybe the weather, maybe 'Because its Donington', maybe because itself was a rescheduled meeting, maybe summer holidays. A normal CSCC event gets more spectators that one of the feeder series that leads to F1 - British F3 --> European F3 --> A1GP / GP2 etc.,

Unless its BTCC or F1, most car events seem to be poorly attended and how many of the crowd are really spectators and not competitors or team members.

Bike meets seem to attract a bigger crowd, British Superbikes was packed out with people dressed as Power Rangers off all ages and I'd imagine MotoGP at Donington to be packed.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by tristancliffe »

AndyY wrote:Well the issue has made this weeks Autosport! Several column inches in the National Racing editorial no less.
I emailed Kevin to tell him he ought to research the club before saying it's an uncompetitive championship dominated by one or two people and for making his uninformed comments about mixing the classes despite all the talk over the years in this regard. I haven't had a reply. He should speak to his deputy (Ben Anderson).
andrewcliffe wrote:...or going home - I chose home! Only 9 cars finished.
That must have been one hell of a drive home!
Tristan Cliffe - MSV F3 Cup - Dallara F307 Image
Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011 with a Reynard 883 and a Dallara F398, and F3 Cup and Team Champion 2012

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by jimblockley »

lets face it modern single seaters tend to be boring processions.(including F1).I dont suppose the f3 races were any more electrifying, unless someone tried a desperate overtaking manouvre.

You are more likely to get some good racing in mono with its mix of cars and driver abilities.

BTCC is problem only attractive becuase of its stock car element not good clean racing.

Marcus pye should put his editor right.

As for mixing different chassis i would not want to have a collision with the JKS Geof is driving, its built like the the proverbial brick sh**house

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by andrewcliffe »

The best two races I've seen this year have been Mono races, the two championship rounds at Mallory - the 2000s because of the dice between Tristan and Neil, and the other race because of Kat storming from the back of the grid to within sight of the lead.

Out of all the races MRC has put on this year, I would say the Donington was the least exciting from a spectators point of view - I've seen them all apart from the Mallory non-championship race. Drivers may have a different perspective...

The F3 (watched from Esses) race I saw at Donington was largely processional and so was the FF race (Hairpin), although maybe they don't want to risk their car with another race only a matter of hours later.

As I have attended most BTCC meetings this year, the Formula Renault racing has been a little more exciting. I agree that the BTCC races is popular for the wrong reasons - the driving standards are woefully low, but the drivers have a big following, especially Plato and Chilton. However the crowds that attend are huge on race day and pretty busy on the Saturday as well and ITV4 do a lot of live coverage. The G50 races are exciting to watch as well, and deserve to attain the popularity that the old TVR Tuscan Challenge achieved.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by phuston »

I think that it may be worth pointing out that any editor may write a column that is intended to be contentious rather than a serious contribuition to policy (though I am sure that I have never acted or would act in such a way..........).

Observing several races from current role as spectator/reporter. I would claim that the 1000/1400/1600/1800 race was far more entertaining to watch than the others available on Saturday at Donington ( I agree with Andrew, the Caterhams were reasonably entertaining). This view can be detected in the recently published race reports in Startline.

While the top end of formula racing may have conditioned professional commentators into thinking that a good race involves watching a number of identical cars following each other round a track like the wagons in a goods train, most spectators want to see some action, by which they mean overtaking or spinning or excursions from the tarmac.

The 1800 field on Saturday, largely ignored by the commentators because it was midfield, provided this sort of entertainment by the bucketload. There was far too much action for a scribe to report.

Many formula races are processions because the drivers are universally skilled (don't make mistakes) and experienced, the cars professionally prepared, new, nearly new and near identical, put another way variation and speed differentials are minimal. Unfortunately, this reduces the speed differential between cars to a point where overtaking opportunities are minimal.

Monoposto is different.

We exist to provide our competitors with entertainment they can afford, not a career dependant on sponsorship. Spectator entertainment is not one of our priorities, but I would argue that a byproduct of the diversity on display is a more entertaining event for the average spectator, who wishes to see action on track rather than a high speed train.

The numbers in each class vary from season to season, and event to event. As a club we need to keeping our entry numbers up, which means responding to changing circumstances. As a past 1800 rep., I a very pleased to note the current increase in entries in the class. The number of 1800s currently entering is now so great that on most circuits it precludes putting them with the 2000s. We have to be pragmatic and respond to the situation that we have, rather than turn down potential entries because they don't fit into a hypothetical plan.
Patrick H
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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by AndyY »

I accept that Mono doesn't have to be concerned too much with spectator enjoyment, club racing isn't about the spectators, but surely all participants must enjoy close racing and battling for places, wherever you are in the field. Adding the bike engined cars will only increase the competiveness throughout the 2 litre field. It would also then leave Mono 1600/1800 to establish its own identity & may be more enjpyable for many as they can spend more time racing each other and less time worrying about being lapped by the bike engined cars.

As for safety, I am now not sure whether the issue is the different cornering characteristics of the Mono 2000 cars compared to the bike engined cars or whether its the consequences of impact between the two that worry. Both reason have been given.

If its the former, I'd expect that to have far more to do with the variable driver skills in club racing than the types of car. Either way, participants in the non championship race were happy to take their chances (and similarly the issues do not seem to arise in F4).

I am obviously not involved any more but I just think that Mono would be better for everyone if the bike engined cars were introduced into the Mono 2000 grid and allowed Mono 1600/1800 to grow as a clubman (largely) non slicks & wings category with the opportunity for particpants from this grid to have the chance of overall victories that is currently denied.
Andy Yeomans - former Mono 1800 and 2000 racer (!?). Now CSCC and aspiring Clubmans racer.

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Re: GRID SIZES

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I haven't read the Autosport editorial which reportedly has a go at Monoposto. I stopped taking Autosport several years ago having bought it regularly since I started in motorsport in 1968. These days I browse it on the shelf to see if the magazine's interest, knowledge, coverage, and support relating to National/Club racing gets my dollar. Not currently.

As it happens the Mono 2000 classes race at Donington wasn't particularly gripping to watch. I'm sure by contrast there is never a dull F1 or F3 race...I think the majority of our races for both grids this year have been exciting and enjoyable both for spectators and, most importantly, for the drivers - and it is the drivers who are paying for the whole show, every time. In today's National and Club Racing world, drivers are customers (not forgetting the marshals who "pay to participate" with their time and expertise) - something which I think Autosport may have completely failed to understand.

Even so I am surprised to read in this thread that Autosport have apparently seen fit to publicly criticise us without giving me a call first to discuss their views, or coming over to talk to us in the paddock. I wonder if the fact that our Championship is sponsored, and regularly reported, by a rival magazine has anything to do with this? Surely not. If anyone from Autosport staff reads my post here - give me a ring on 01327 843056: convince me I'm wrong! I'll report back here on any contact I get.

On the subject of overall grid sizes, I should point out that Monoposto is now by far the largest single seater championship in this country. We have 60 entries for our next Track and Race Cars Magazine Mono Championship Round at Silverstone. For example contrast this with the Midland & Southern FF1600 round at Mallory next Sunday which has seven entries, with the non Championship Edwina Overend FF Trophy at the same meeting pulling the same number. We get more entries in just our Mono 1600 class than this. Last month there was a non-championship Monoposto event at Mallory which was over-subscribed.

I don't want to enter into the detailed discussion on the forum about how and why we should organise the classes within our grids. This issue is kept under constant review. If anyone has an opinion/ideas on this, then please come and talk to me at a Mono race meeting: I'm easy to find. As far as I can recall not one competitor in Mono 1000 or any of the 2000 classes has made a case to me to have them race together. Several have expressed strong views that they should not be combined, if this can be avoided. This is my own view as well.

We are certainly not complacent about the position and development of Monoposto Racing. The views of current and potential Mono competitors carry a lot of weight for everyone who is involved in managing the Club on behalf of its members.

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by broadside »

I read the Autosport column and I think its been a little overstated. I didn't see it as been over critical, just someone thinking out loud with an open mind......
Personally I don't see what the problem is at the moment, we seem to have good entries on both grids and all those participating seem happy with things as they are don't they??
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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by conan »

come on put the damn thing on the forum so we can all read it im not going to buy a copy.

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by Paperman »

Conan wrote
come on put the damn thing on the forum so we can all read it im not going to buy a copy.
I rather think that's exactly Autosport's problem Pete.

I've now read the editorial and I agree with Graham P: I think its critical content was overstated by earlier posters in the thread. Nevertheless it does present the idea of moving the 1000s in with the 2000s as a new thought which has apparently not occurred to anyone else. As I said previously, it's an issue which has been very carefully considered - the journalist concerned might have discovered this if he had talked to us.

Incidentally the Mono 1800 entries at Silverstone, who are sharing the grid with the Mono 1000/1400s, now stand at 16. This is the largest class of the year to date, with 5 new-to-the-championship competitors joining us. As our Startline editor mentioned, the Mono 1800s also provided some excellent racing at Donington which I think everyone enjoyed...

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Re: GRID SIZES

Post by conan »

WOW 16 1800s people are seeing sense at last.
Its the best bucks racing in the country (probably the world)
And the most exiting multi class racing in mono.
We get the best of all worlds.

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