Hans Device

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tristancliffe
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Re: Hans Device

Postby tristancliffe » Thu Sep 16, 2010 7:20 pm

That may be the case in the slightly higher echelons of the sport, but at club level I don't think it's too safe - although I do believe it could become too safe, and that such a thing exists. One of the main reasons, in single seaters, for not touching is the risk of a major accident that becomes VERY expensive and could cost you your life.

As Geoff said at the top, he could well have come out a lot worse than bruised. And it wasn't even that big a crash (i.e. rolling, fire, engines parting company etc) in the grand scheme of things. I don't think Mono is too safe just because a driver can survive a head on 100mph+ impact with a tyre barrier.

Edit: And I'm aware that your Spa 2007 accident may also influence you against a HANS device. But, personally speaking, I'd rather cover the 'normal' accident of driving into something the right way up! ;)
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Re: Hans Device

Postby phuston » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:36 pm

Jim wrote: "all this talk of more safety devices makes me think that is why driving standards are deterioting, seems to me motoracing is now too safe and encourages drivers to turn it into a contact sport".

Jim may be making a general point and certainly the behaviour of professional drivers when they 'squeeze' their opponents as they leave the grid seems reprehensible to me, but, as I understand it, contact had little to do with this case.

Geoff went left to avoid T boning Phil Nicholson who was spinning in front of him. Once he was on the wet grass he had become a passenger. I had a similar type of incident several years ago at Snetterton. The difference is in the circuits, I finished with a car full of very fine sandy loam and winter wheat, Geoff had a high speed head on collision with Armco protected by a single row of tyres.

Geoff's trip into the Armco was initiated by his attempt to avoid a collision with another competitor. I suspect that like many others we discovered that a slick shod racing car is impossible to control when on wet grass, or flying over wet grass.

In sports that involve speed it is frequently the severity of deceleration that is important. Fall over on an icy ski slope at 40 mph, slide for 200m, and you will walk away, possibly with friction burns. Ski into a substantial tree at 40mph and you leave the slopes in a bag.

My personal view is that as well as Goeff, the MRC, the organisers of the Mallory meeting, and other competitors racing at that meeting, were very fortunate to find that the competitor that had this accident was wearing a HANS device.
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Re: Hans Device

Postby jimblockley » Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:02 pm

I take your point Patrick, in a sudden stop it probably saved serious injury.
In the case with my accident at Spa where i was able to get my head sideways and down into the cutout in the side of the Bowman tub, had i been wearing a Hans i would have taken the full force of the accident in my head.
Would that have caused serious i do not know? but in that case i was glad i was not wearing a hans.

I was not questioning the effectiveness of hans, just that very safe carbon cars plus safer curcuits etc. has introduced unacceptable standards of driving, resulting in a huge increase in collisions between competitors.

Ben Andersons editorial in this weeks Autosport,confirms that this not just confined to professional driving, but is rife in club racing to the point where we may all have to compulsory fit incar cameras, as is mandatory in some champioships.
When i started many years ago red flags were a rare occurance, then usaully because a driver had crashed on his own, not because of a collision with another competitor.

By the way Tristan there is no such thing as normal acciednt in motor racing, it is very often the freak one,s that can be fatal as we saw this season in F2 an i have seen in the past in F1 etc, and one particular incident where a mono member was seriously injured at the Mallory hairpin.

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Re: Hans Device

Postby Nick Harrison » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:03 am

If anyone saw Nigel Mansell being interviewed at Monza when he was FIA Steward he made exactly the same point as Jim.

When asked why driving standards had deteriorated in F1 he replied because the cars are so much safer now and "when I was doing it you knew a big accident was going to hurt so you did not intentionally put yourself in that position".

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Re: Hans Device

Postby broadside » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:21 pm

One massive and free improvement to safety would be for people to use their mirrors......
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Re: Hans Device

Postby lee » Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:51 am

jimblockley wrote:I take your point Patrick, in a sudden stop it probably saved serious injury.
In the case with my accident at Spa where i was able to get my head sideways and down into the cutout in the side of the Bowman tub, had i been wearing a Hans i would have taken the full force of the accident in my head.
Would that have caused serious i do not know? but in that case i was glad i was not wearing a hans.

I was not questioning the effectiveness of hans, just that very safe carbon cars plus safer curcuits etc. has introduced unacceptable standards of driving, resulting in a huge increase in collisions between competitors.

Ben Andersons editorial in this weeks Autosport,confirms that this not just confined to professional driving, but is rife in club racing to the point where we may all have to compulsory fit incar cameras, as is mandatory in some champioships.
When i started many years ago red flags were a rare occurance, then usaully because a driver had crashed on his own, not because of a collision with another competitor.

By the way Tristan there is no such thing as normal acciednt in motor racing, it is very often the freak one,s that can be fatal as we saw this season in F2 an i have seen in the past in F1 etc, and one particular incident where a mono member was seriously injured at the Mallory hairpin.



I agree Jim.

stevengriffin wrote:I think that our law makers within the sport should be encouraging more competitors to use this device and should make it possible by not making us constantly change seat belts and the like that are obviously fit for purpose but just 'old' perhaps freeing up money to spend on this neck-saving little gadget. :?:



Too right Steve. But why do they make the Hans so expensive. It cant cost that amount to produce even taking development costs into account. Has any other study ever taken place into the device other than that carried out by Hans?
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Re: Hans Device

Postby Vincent Fox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:16 am

I think uncle Cliff is right, the perception of motor sport being safe these days has clouded peoples judgement.

I remember Geoff's Dallara hit a wall at Silverstone at 106mph in a frontal impact and there was no tyre wall between the car and the concrete. I suspect three things saved the drivers neck that day. The carbon fibre nose cone that took the impact and vaporised, the structure of the high impact headrest and cockpit surround fitted to post 99 dallara's and the lower more horizontal seating arrangement of modern cars. Perhaps my good friend from TFR should have spent his Hans money on repairing the superbly designed Dallara and not gone down the route of driving lesser cars.

Perhaps the problem is Mallory, there is insufficient room fro run off at gerards, the esses, the hairpin, and devils elbow. Pretty much every corner doesn't give any room for error. Add in such an awful infrastructure and paddock and the question is why do Mono race there?

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Re: Hans Device

Postby Vincent Fox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:06 am

phuston wrote:Patrick wrote: Jim may be making a general point and certainly the behaviour of professional drivers when they 'squeeze' their opponents as they leave the grid seems reprehensible to me.


I don't know about this 'squeezing'. Seems to me that the track is defined very clearly by a solid white line denoting the edge. All racing should take place on track and therefore inside the line. If you are in front and defend your line to the point that an attacking car would have to cross the white line (leave the track) then surely the attacking car should lift off in order to stay within the designated track or be penalised.

I may be a lone voice in my neck of the woods but I believe it was the naughty Brazilian who should have got the penalty in Hungary and not the dirty hun. It was Rubins who put himself between another car and the wall and then drove off track when he crossed the white line to gain position. Surely of little South American went of circuit when he used the pit lane exit to make his move stick.

When it comes to handing out penalties it seems Dell boy (a dirty touring car driver in his day) employed a little pay back from past run ins with Herr Schumacher and slapped a grid slot punishment for a crime he almost committed. In essence the FIA stewards found someone guilty of a crime they almost did. Imagine how many male readers could be imprisoned for sexual offences if you only had to think about the crime. Every Sun reader who gets to page three for a start.

If anyone it is Rubins that could have caused an accident. Schumi moved to defend his line knowing Rubins could see what he was doing. Rubins drove straight across the pit lane exit and should know that any car exiting wouldn't know he was there.

Racing should be hard, if it was easy you would have people from Norfolk doing it.

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Re: Hans Device

Postby tristancliffe » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:01 am

To be fair Phil, we only recently got electricity this year, and it was 1993 when the wheel was first imported to this county.
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Re: Hans Device

Postby stevengriffin » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:16 pm

I echo the comments about Mallory. It is the only track that I have been racing at when there was a fatality. A few years back I was racing with Alfas and a fellow competitor hit the wall there. He was very dead when they got him out of his car. It was a very sobering day for all concerned and one that many will not forget. He had been nudged (allegedly) from behind going into the right hander at the end of the straight. It's quick there...
Some of the tyre barriers at that corner are packed with soil for Ch***st's sake. Last week a car managed to hit a bloke standing by a digger in the infield. I think he managed to climb over the wall at the Devil's Elbow. I have hit the wall going into the hairpin and I had an unwelcome tour of the medical centre (very good facility by the way).
Mallory is one of the fastest (100+ mph laps)tracks we visit and in my view the most dangerous by far. Combined with an unspeakable paddock I fully understand why there are questions asked.
Strange thing is that it is one of the most popular meeting of the year with three grids!

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Re: Hans Device

Postby Vincent Fox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:41 pm

I am a loss to understand the popularity as well. It's a rubish circuit with one trick to a fast lap, the esses not gerards (which is easy). It took them years to get rid of the tree. One can only wonder at how many avoidible accents occured due to tree sap on a wet track.

Strong support for races at Silverstone GP and Spa shuold give the club confidence to book premier circuits and let Mallory sink into the lake where it belongs.

Ultimate Mono Championship:

Feb Abu Dhabi
Mar Brands Hatch GP
April Donnington
May Oulton Park Long
June Angelsey GP
July Spa
July Imola
Aug Silverstone GP
Sep Croft
Oct Snetterton

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Re: Hans Device

Postby andrewcliffe » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:51 pm

The three grids is partly imposed by the grid capacity of 24 (IIRC) cars. Running three was an experiment, two could have been run but at a squeeze with people possibly being disappointed not to get a race. The 2000 Classic and 1800 put out 23 cars on Sunday....

The lack of run off was demonstrated when a 246 Dino vaulted the barrier at Devil's Elbow, hitting a breakdown marshall on the other side. Both driver and marshall were taken to hospital and it was a miracle that neither were killed.

Mallory is: a) fairly cheap b) central and maybe the shortness of it appeals to newcomers - easy to learn although harder to master - but they do get lapped very quickly. It has good viewing facilities as well which is good.
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Re: Hans Device

Postby AndyY » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:01 pm

There is no doubt that the facilites/ infrastucture at Mallory are poor but the run off has been increased this year at several areas and I would argue that its no worse in many areas now than at Oulton Park & is better than Cadwell in many places.
Andy Yeomans - former Mono 1800 and 2000 racer (!?). Now CSCC and aspiring Clubmans racer.

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Re: Hans Device

Postby Vincent Fox » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:57 pm

But Cadwell isnt really safe for cars either. Oulton never struck me as dangerous, ok maybe when Jim and Jeremy race, but not ussually.

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Re: Hans Device

Postby RedRedWine » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:06 pm

Vincent Fox wrote:
Ultimate Mono Championship:

Feb Abu Dhabi
Mar Brands Hatch GP
April Donnington
May Oulton Park Long
June Angelsey GP
July Spa
July Imola
Aug Silverstone GP
Sep Croft
Oct Snetterton


All perfectly sensible - except Anglesey. Surely it has to be the Coastal Circuit as that's got the Corkscrew?
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