2000 restricters ?

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tristancliffe
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by tristancliffe »

Some valid opinions there that merit discussion. I have a few vague responses, as clearly it is all aimed at me. I have been totally open with the club, our engine has been sealed and inspected as was. I would welcome any non-intrusive tests during the season in the paddock (and non-invasive because removing bits of our engine at race meetings is hastle we'd rather not have without club intervention).

1. Our throttle bodies are no more expensive than a set of new carbs. A dyno session is necessary with both. High pressure pumps, injection regulators and injection ECUs are not much more expensive than ignition only/carb versions.

2. I would not deny our engine has more power than a Vauxhall. Would anyone claim otherwise? Toyota engines are simply more powerful given good health.

3. On some circuits/races/sessions/videos, I missed apexes and didn't catch Jeremy. At others I did. At others he made a mistake (which was when I passed him most of the time, if I managed at all). Are we running less downforce? Does our car have less drag?

4. The losing time to Neil and regaining it through (not before) the esses was when we were on Dell'Ortos - carbs, not injection - when we hadn't solved our lateral-g fuelling issue (solved after that race by decreasing fuel pressure half a psi).

5. I don't recall saying I have more talent. On the contrary, Jeremy is clearly a superior driver 99% of the time. Occasionally I fluke a better lap than he.

6. I shouldn't be drawn on the agreement, but as we had wanted injection from the start of our Dallara career, and as we are in Mono because it allows tinkering (as opposed to other championships that require the car to be as it was originally raced). From the dyno results I am sure power increases are pretty negligible. Drivability is the main area of improvement, which isn't quantifiable.

7. Straight line tests are a possibilty if someone buys the track time, followed by a coast down test to correct for aero and mechanical drag. I don't think letting other drivers do it is wise, but I am happy to share datalogging immediately for those runs. Our throttle position (in 2011) should be recorded twice

An interesting debate nonetheless, and I hope the injection regulations never give one driver an advantage, including me. I seem to recall that a carburetted car beat all bar one injection car overall, and shared the wins and new lap records.

I would welcome any car, any engine, any driver and any induction system as competition. Several combinations will beat me (anihilate me). Others will be a good fight. Yet others might be easier to beat. And that's assuming our reliabilty improves.

Bans are extreme, but if the board/committee feel that is the right path then so be it. I think we still have the carbs, but would need to spend money on an ECU, wiring etc. Then we could start a spending war (lots of dyno time to find the right carb size, manifold lengths, exhaust lengths and diameters) rather than just using what we originally calculated as much as possible. For 2011 I have spent £100 on the car, and hope it'll cure the transient misfire - is that a spending war?)
Tristan Cliffe - MSV F3 Cup - Dallara F307 Image
Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011 with a Reynard 883 and a Dallara F398, and F3 Cup and Team Champion 2012

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by scorchio »

Just one last point and I hope it does not get too involved.

If TB's are not that much of an advantage, why not let the Mono 2000 Classics have them?

Would it be the same playing field for them too? I can't think of a reason why not.

Did I spell restrictors wrong?
Last edited by scorchio on Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Nat Filmore »

I can't see why no-one is gracious enough to acknowledge that the Cliffes did a better job (in Mono 2000) than anyone last year, but I guess that's motor racing. Go beat them or shut up.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by samier »

This power arguement will continue. I dont think anyone can trust claims made with out the evidence produced. I think the club should run a dyno shoot out and allow people to make adjustments/increase so all are with in 5-10 bhp of each other. I believe there is a big power disparity between the lowest power 2000 car and the fastest, people will not admit it, but its pretty obvious.

I seriously hope something is done to address this.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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Why should everyone be equal? This is club amateur motorsport. If you do a better job, you do better. Should we all go on drive training courses so all drivers are within 2 tenths driving an M3? No, that would be silly. Should we make sure everyone has the same downforce? Should everyone have the same tyre grip?

Equalising power won't cover up buying the wrong car.

Why should those that have a Toyota be disadvantaged to the level of those that have a terrible engine? Or why should those that buy a Vauxhall be allowed to tune it more than anyone else? (not saying anyone HAS a terrible engine, just using extremes to make a point).

If we're on the subject, can the minimum weight be increased to 580kg please so I have a ting chance of being on the weight limit. Can the number of new tyres per season be limited to 2 or 3. Can camshaft timing be free (you think we have a power advantage now?). Need I go on...
Tristan Cliffe - MSV F3 Cup - Dallara F307 Image
Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011 with a Reynard 883 and a Dallara F398, and F3 Cup and Team Champion 2012

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Shakeyfinch »

Why don't all the drivers have a similar car - call it something unique - like a 'one-make series'. Then at least its only a collective moan by all drivers about how boring the racing is.

For those who were passionate enough about their views to get to the AGM they would have seen one pretty impressive statistic presented by the Treasuer in his report - record number of average grid sizes in 2010, the most successful class being Mono Classic.... the list of good things happening was almost endless.

Doesn't sound too much wrong with that and to me it doesn't sound like banning throttle bodies or having engine dyno tests of whatever are going to improve the show. The one thing those actions would certainly do though is drive up cost - which is against the ethos of what the club is about.

If you want to spend a lot of money in cars with equal power go and do MSV F3 - least now you can share the experience with your Mono friends in the paddock!

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by andrewcliffe »

Watch Tristan's Thruxton video. http://www.youtube.com/user/tristanclif ... Sg3f7-K1RI
Specifically from 3m30. There is no power advantage - in a straight full throttle drag race, Malcolm Scott's Van Diemen has just as much power.

There is another example at Silverstone this year, where Lou Watts in his FVL outdrags him down Silverstone's straight. The advantage comes from cornering and aerodynamics and braking between a car designed in the late 1980's and a car designed in the late 1990's

Tristan was asked to test another car this year to help the owner out and during the first session went 1s quicker around the circuit than the previous owner had ever managed. Same car, same setup, and probably a less than ideal seating position...

Power:

In the road car, the Vauxhall produces around 150bhp (Astra / Calibra) - fact
In the road car, the Toyota produces around 173bhp (MR2 / Celica) - fact

Both engines have their alternators, power steering and air conditioning compressors removed - same.
Both engines have smaller, lighter flywheels fitted - same
Both engines have the wet sump system removed and replaced with an F3 type dry sump - same
Both engines have either carbs or thottle bodies fitted - same
Is it not fair to expect the natural advantage the road Toyota has to be maintained over the Vauxhall?

Power increases over standard because there is no parasitic losses from the ancillary devices and the heavier flywheel. As both engines have their road car inlet manifold and exhaust manifolds removed and replaced with ones packaged for F3 cars, power gains can be found here as well.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by tristancliffe »

Very flattering Andrew, but you're biased!!

I love gearing a car by the way. Choosing the right ratios. Getting the rev drops and spacing right. Avoiding the wrong temptation to gear the car for max revs at top speed. I've yet to change ratios in the paddock. Maybe I should do a back to back test of Cliffe gearing versus 'The Paddock recommended method'?

What about our little engine cover cover? Is that worth 1mph or 3?

What about the hub inner covers? Worth how much drag

There is vastly more to top speed than power. Lenny Coleman (a nice guy if ever there was one, and who quietly loves his racing) has about 2hp less than us (going by dyno sheets, although his was last rebuilt prior to 2008 season. Hasn't blown up yet!!
Tristan Cliffe - MSV F3 Cup - Dallara F307 Image
Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011 with a Reynard 883 and a Dallara F398, and F3 Cup and Team Champion 2012

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Nat Filmore »

I agree with everything Shakeyfinch says. Special building may be moribund (alas) but Mono is one of the last formulae where that ethos applies. It is very demanding, but rewarding to produce a winning car, ask the Cliffes, Harrisons, Ferns, Avit, Woodhouses, Camerons etc. There is a big place for "plug and play" cars, but they should not be a shortcut to easy victory, hence the current restrictor rules in 2000. Give the man willing and able to go the extra engineering mile the chance!

PS Tristan has stated this admirably.
Last edited by Nat Filmore on Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by tonybishop »

At the end of last season I asked the question if my FR2000 would be able to adopt the 2007 newer style bodywork for aero improvement, the request was considered and rejected by the board , I was advised no amendments to the rules for 3 years , respected the decision and got on with it.

I have since purchased Jeremys F397 and invested in a complete overhaul ( incl throttle bodies ) on the basis the rules are set for 3 years , so the car shall be competitive for 3 years . Surely people are not requesting a change to the rules some 3to 4 weeks prior to first meeting.

The regulations are in place , if you consider throttle bodies are a big improvement , then fit them, if you are not as fast as you believe you are , then practice , improve the car or change the car, is the way to go .
If you require every car to be identical in overall performance , then FR Barc provides this format already for you.

My understanding is the Regs are in place

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by andrewcliffe »

tristancliffe wrote:Very flattering Andrew, but you're biased!!
In 2006 we ran the Reynard with two drivers at three sprint events. The car was the same. The seat was the same, and at the first event even the suit, boots and lid were the same! None of us had any previous competition experience to speak of.

Event 1: Tristan's best time was 6s faster than the other drivers time.
Event 2: Tristan's best time was also 6s faster than the other drivers time.
Event 3: similar margin.

The other driver was myself.

The car is a precision instrument and needs a skilled and deft touch to get the best from it, not just the driving but also the design and set up of it.

When I wield a hammer and a chisel, I create rubble. Alexandros of Antioch created the Venus de Milo
When I wield a paintbrush, I paint a room. Michelangelo painted the Sistene Chapel
When I cook, I narrowly avoid giving people food poisoning. Heston Blumenheck creates something special
When I wield a knife, I cut something out from paper. Steven Griffen saves someones life.
When I wield a pen, I write a shopping list. Shakespeare wrote sonnets.

I am proud to say Tristan is much better at driving racing cars than I, which I why I take the pictures.
Last edited by andrewcliffe on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Cliffe - Monoposto photographer - http://www.norwichphoto.co.uk & Racing Exposure - http://www.racingexposure.com/blog

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by tristancliffe »

Andrew,

Event 1: You got the first in class trophy because I couldn't stay within the cones marking the course
Event 2: You were annoyingly faster through druids than me. This suggests you are far from talentless, and quite possibly potentially better than me.
Event 3: You had a spin on a damp track that wrecked your confidence, and were very cautious on the subsequent laps of Lydden.

You are, however, far better at taking photos that me, which is why I do the easy bit.
Tristan Cliffe - MSV F3 Cup - Dallara F307 Image
Monoposto Champion 2008, 2010 & 2011 with a Reynard 883 and a Dallara F398, and F3 Cup and Team Champion 2012

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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Last edited by RedRedWine on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by samier »

tonybishop wrote:At the end of last season I asked the question if my FR2000 would be able to adopt the 2007 newer style bodywork for aero improvement, the request was considered and rejected by the board , I was advised no amendments to the rules for 3 years , respected the decision and got on with it.

I have since purchased Jeremys F397 and invested in a complete overhaul ( incl throttle bodies ) on the basis the rules are set for 3 years , so the car shall be competitive for 3 years . Surely people are not requesting a change to the rules some 3to 4 weeks prior to first meeting.

The regulations are in place , if you consider throttle bodies are a big improvement , then fit them, if you are not as fast as you believe you are , then practice , improve the car or change the car, is the way to go .
If you require every car to be identical in overall performance , then FR Barc provides this format already for you.

My understanding is the Regs are in place
The Renault is a capable car of being as quick as some of the Dallaras if the club would allow the car to run non restricted. It should be about giving other cars a half decent chance, other wise why not set up "Mono Dallara F3" class It seems clear that people are worried that a Renault in the right hands could start winning, and that would piss off a whole load of Dallara owners?

I find it very annoying when people keep saying I bought the wrong car. There is nothing wrong with the car at all, just allow the use of a non restricted engine and that is all I am asking for. Why should someone be forced to spend 20k plus just to buy a Dallara just to be competitive? The Mono 2000 rules at present favour the Dallaras with out doubt, I have a car that can be just as competetive but they are purposefully being disadvantaged.

I personally know a few other owners with Formula Renault's one one raced in BARC who is holding back from entering Mono 2000 on the basis of the Renault being penalised.
Last edited by samier on Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by samier »

"On behalf of Phil."

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