2000 restricters ?

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andrewcliffe
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by andrewcliffe »

Unrestricted the engine is illegal because it has variable valve timing.

If VVT engines were then permitted, the later Toyota engine could be used or the Honda engines which in road trim give up to 240bhp.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by samier »

Well if a Toyota engine is making 200bhp on TB, vs a VVT engine making 200 bhp, why should the VVT be held back by 30bhp? I dont think the VVT can make up for the 30BHP and the Torque deficit.

I am willing to put money, that in a drag Tristans Dallara would beat the Renault by 4 or 5 car lenghts with the 37mm restrictor.

Personally I dont care that if teh Toyota is the most powerful engine and with TB it is an advantage. My point is that holding an engine back some 30bhp makes a hell of a difference, we are losing 10-12mph on the straights easily.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by andrewcliffe »

I can't help thinking that all this information was in the public domain before you bought the Formula Renault.

Formula One moved to fuel injection in the 1960's. I don't know when F3 moved over, but problably late 70's/early 80's. Road cars moved over by the mid 1980's. What other 4 wheel formula gives such high cornering ability (over 2.5g sustained) on carburettors?

This level is beyond the carburettors ability to supply fuel accurately and an engine going lean at this sort of speed could be a potential big problem.

I'm eligible for the 100m sprint, but I don't expect the governing body of athletics to make Usain Bolt run in diving gear just to give me a chance.

The balance of knowledge has shifted from carbs to FI over the past decade, and many rolling roads when shown some carburettors get the sweats and the shakes and their knowledge if pressed often comes up lacking.

Tristan has already provided the board with copies of our dyno tests on carburettors and fuel injection - taken on the same day, on the same engine dyno (not a rolling road), so as close to lab conditions as possible.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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andrewcliffe wrote:I can't help thinking that all this information was in the public domain before you bought the Formula Renault.

Formula One moved to fuel injection in the 1960's. I don't know when F3 moved over, but problably late 70's/early 80's. Road cars moved over by the mid 1980's. What other 4 wheel formula gives such high cornering ability (over 2.5g sustained) on carburettors?

This level is beyond the carburettors ability to supply fuel accurately and an engine going lean at this sort of speed could be a potential big problem.

I'm eligible for the 100m sprint, but I don't expect the governing body of athletics to make Usain Bolt run in diving gear just to give me a chance.

The balance of knowledge has shifted from carbs to FI over the past decade, and many rolling roads when shown some carburettors get the sweats and the shakes and their knowledge if pressed often comes up lacking.

Tristan has already provided the board with copies of our dyno tests on carburettors and fuel injection - taken on the same day, on the same engine dyno (not a rolling road), so as close to lab conditions as possible.
The 100m sprint comparison is silly, Usain Bolt has an advantage because of his huge strides as well as being naturally gifted. The Dallara can be considered Usain Bolt, while the Renault could be considered Asafa Powell.

Lets look at it this way, both out of the box Dallara (Bolt) is naturally faster than the Renault (Powell) but then its like IAAF saying, Powell could beat Bolt on a bad day, no no we dont want that, but lets handicap him and make him wear lead shoes, so he never has a chance in hell .. Bolt winning is good for the sport.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Anson »

Mono 2000 is a mix of chassis and engine regs - people don't have to run a Dallara but it is generally the best chassis and almost certainly a better chassis than the Formula Renault.

I think a more valid argument for the Formula Renault is whether the chassis should be allowed to be run with a Mono 2000 spec engine ie put the Toyota or the XE20 in your carbon chassis with sequential gearbox. Still won't be as good as a Dallara but should be closer than with a restricted Renault.

As to de-restricting the Renault engine, that opens a whole new can of worms as you are then running an engine with variable valve timing - if that was to be allowed, I will lobby for the Formula Master also to be allowed as it is basically the same car but with the Honda K20 engine (from the Civic Type R) instead of a Renault and rush out and buy one of those instead. Look forward to my 250bhp stock 2 litre Honda VTEC engine....

The Mono committe has already reacted to the debate about Formula Renault by easing the rules on the restrictor for this season - why not let it run at that and see how it goes - I thought that was a sensible and reasonable move but we have not yet had a chance to see what difference it makes.

I raced a Formula Renault at Donington in the Winter Series of 2001 (when a certain L Hamilton debuted in cars) - the front runners were doing 1m 7s around Donington, I did a 1m 9.9s - the current Mono 2000 record with a Dallara is 1m 10.1
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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I can't quite help thinking this may be more of a valid argument if you were closer to the ultimate pace of the Formula Renaults, but by your own admission elsewhere you've got some way to go.

At Brands Hatch, first time out in Mono for the FR2000, on the smaller restrictor, in racing conditions, the best time was 0.7% off the leading Dallara, set by someone with several years racing experience, but wouldn't be considered a future hotshot, finishing mid field in the BARC championship. Tom, not new to Mono, was about 7.8% off the pace in his first race in your car. Tony was 11% off the pace in his first ever race.

At Silverstone National, where a power advantage may show more than at Brands, in racing conditions the gap extends to 4.6%, and there is a but, which I'll come to now. Jeremy was fighting for a championship against Tristan which could have gone either way. Jeremy and Tristan were the class of 2010 and spurred the best from each other - enough to be noticed by Autosport magazine who placed the rivalry in their top 10 of the year. If you, as is not uncommon in statistics, disregard some results as exceptional and out of the norm, the best FR time was 2.5% compared to Richard Purcell injected Dallara in race 1 and 1.2% from Nick Anstructhers Bowman carburettor classic car in the final race - Richard's car stopped and his times aren't shown on TSL. Richard's been getting quicker and quicker all year, and Nick Anstruther is always fast when he races. Your own race pace was down on quali, 9.7% in qualifying and 12.95% off in racing conditions.

This shows what a year Tony had in a Formula Renault, going from a novice to taking a podium in the final race, on the small restrictor and on harder tyres. Henry Fryer was impressive in his only outing with his older car at Britcar before it expired early in the 2nd race.

Tony Bishop, Matthew Draper and Antel have demonstrated that the car is capable in full BARC spec, on harder tyres at 40mm. Now with a bigger restrictor allowed for 2011 and a free tyre/wheel choice (which was there before) you've got nothing to grumble about.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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Nobody is being penalised. The Renault has been awarded a power hike for next season. Henry Fryer in an 8V Renault was quite quick at Silverstone, so a 16V with 37mm intake restrictor should easily beat that. I'm sure the board will keep an eye on tge performance of the 16V Renaults in 2011 to determine if unrestricted should be considered. However, engine power and/or restrictors should not be used to overcome deficits (either through chassis weaknesses, driver weaknesses or tyre compound weaknesses). I suspect Samier will be quite a lot quicker with his new restrictor and some Avon (or similar) tyres. Antel's talented drivers proved at Brands that a well driven Renault is quite competitive.

As for the Mono2000 engines (i.e. Standard road engines without VVT), the talk of injection has been on the cards for some time before the rule changes were brought in. I even felt that 40mm would be too small, but it turns out Russ and Nick weren't far off. Should we have stuck with carbs in 2010? Maybe. Would that have changed anything? I don't think so. At the end of 2009 I was able to drive our carbed car at a similar pace to Jeremy. After the injection change I was able to drive at a similar pace to Jeremy. My top speeds are similar for both years (differences being wind speed, tyre condition, gearing, wing angle and driver ability after a year learning the car). Would it make you all feel better to know that our engine is 2mm under the max allowed throttle limit? In Renault parlance we are choosing to run with a 35mm restrictor when 37mm is allowed. We could have used 40mm TBs; we could have used sleeved 42mm TBs, but we couldn't afford that. I fail to see how buying cheaper throttle bodies than are allowed is a spending war..,

Clan Purcell, Clan Woodhouse, Anstech Racing, and others either have or are likely to use injection, and it was felt that in the face of such changes we should follow suit.

The injection revolution was brought in to modernise the championship. Carbs are (and I like carbs, I know how to set them up, and most of my experience has been with them) old fashioned. People were turning away from Mono2000 because of the need to use carbs. Clan Purcell didn't bother with their Dallara in 2009 because they wanted to use injection.

I have spent a considerable amount of time learning about fuel injection. I am now happy to play with the ECU maps between sessions (at no cost - I do this myself on my own laptop), and indeed had to at several meetings when a misfire manifested itself. Everyone else is able to do the same. There are no secrets about injection - all the knowledge you need is out there. Purcell, Woodhouse, Bishop and Cliffe will be on injection next year. Maybe Anstech too. And maybe others.

We like the technical side. We wanted injection from the start - not because it would give us an advantage over everyone (our ECU, throttle bodies and sensors are all commercially available to anyone) but because it's something new to learn about and develop, and it's more fitting for F3 cars to be on. Others prefer to pay someone else. Others are happy to muddle through and just be racing drivers, regardless of results, ability etc. All are valid approaches (I'm good friends with people from each category). But we like to tinker. We like to engineer am advantage by application of thought and science (ish). I would be happy to do the same for anyone if they like - £38/hour plus VAT is all it takes.

I'm also amused to see that the two main people in this argument (and I don't mean Jeremy, who is a fantastic driver worthy of trophies for that alone, and also a fantastic mechanic/engineer, except with starter motor repairs) are two with little or no understanding of tyre dynamics, chassis dynamics, aerodynamics, engine dynamics, electronic programming, mechanical understanding or how to run a motorsport championship successfully. Are they ideally placed (compared with many Mono members and Board members) to comment on the why's and wherefores of engine performance?
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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Anson wrote:Mono 2000 is a mix of chassis and engine regs - people don't have to run a Dallara but it is generally the best chassis and almost certainly a better chassis than the Formula Renault.

I think a more valid argument for the Formula Renault is whether the chassis should be allowed to be run with a Mono 2000 spec engine ie put the Toyota or the XE20 in your carbon chassis with sequential gearbox. Still won't be as good as a Dallara but should be closer than with a restricted Renault.

As to de-restricting the Renault engine, that opens a whole new can of worms as you are then running an engine with variable valve timing - if that was to be allowed, I will lobby for the Formula Master also to be allowed as it is basically the same car but with the Honda K20 engine (from the Civic Type R) instead of a Renault and rush out and buy one of those instead. Look forward to my 250bhp stock 2 litre Honda VTEC engine....

The Mono committe has already reacted to the debate about Formula Renault by easing the rules on the restrictor for this season - why not let it run at that and see how it goes - I thought that was a sensible and reasonable move but we have not yet had a chance to see what difference it makes.

I raced a Formula Renault at Donington in the Winter Series of 2001 (when a certain L Hamilton debuted in cars) - the front runners were doing 1m 7s around Donington, I did a 1m 9.9s - the current Mono 2000 record with a Dallara is 1m 10.1
First of all a deristriced Renault with VVT is not going to push out anything over 200bhp. So the fear of an unrestricted Renault F4R being comparable in terms of power to the Honda K20 engine is not really valid.

Either way people are over reacting just because the Renault has a VVT system. It is not as effective or better than a Honda VTEC system. We are rev limited to 7250 rpm, not the crazy 8.5k plus of the VTEC.

A Formula Master is much more advanced than the Formula Renault, the only things that they share is the name Tatuus.

http://www.tatuus.it/master.php

Its a totally different car to the FR2000.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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andrewcliffe wrote:I can't quite help thinking this may be more of a valid argument if you were closer to the ultimate pace of the Formula Renaults, but by your own admission elsewhere you've got some way to go.

At Brands Hatch, first time out in Mono for the FR2000, on the smaller restrictor, in racing conditions, the best time was 0.7% off the leading Dallara, set by someone with several years racing experience, but wouldn't be considered a future hotshot, finishing mid field in the BARC championship. Tom, not new to Mono, was about 7.8% off the pace in his first race in your car. Tony was 11% off the pace in his first ever race.

At Silverstone National, where a power advantage may show more than at Brands, in racing conditions the gap extends to 4.6%, and there is a but, which I'll come to now. Jeremy was fighting for a championship against Tristan which could have gone either way. Jeremy and Tristan were the class of 2010 and spurred the best from each other - enough to be noticed by Autosport magazine who placed the rivalry in their top 10 of the year. If you, as is not uncommon in statistics, disregard some results as exceptional and out of the norm, the best FR time was 2.5% compared to Richard Purcell injected Dallara in race 1 and 1.2% from Nick Anstructhers Bowman carburettor classic car in the final race - Richard's car stopped and his times aren't shown on TSL. Richard's been getting quicker and quicker all year, and Nick Anstruther is always fast when he races. Your own race pace was down on quali, 9.7% in qualifying and 12.95% off in racing conditions.

This shows what a year Tony had in a Formula Renault, going from a novice to taking a podium in the final race, on the small restrictor and on harder tyres. Henry Fryer was impressive in his only outing with his older car at Britcar before it expired early in the 2nd race.

Tony Bishop, Matthew Draper and Antel have demonstrated that the car is capable in full BARC spec, on harder tyres at 40mm. Now with a bigger restrictor allowed for 2011 and a free tyre/wheel choice (which was there before) you've got nothing to grumble about.

I am not talking about driving skill here, so I dont want to even get into that, I had very little track time last year, unlike Henry who has been racing more or less non stop since 2009. Tony, even though it was his first season, probably did a fair bit of testing and cerrtainly did much more last than me in the Renault. There is no substitute for track time. I am not really worried I know that will come.

The argument here is about engine power, or the disparity between engines that make up the Mono 2000 class.

Yes I am happy that the club listened we have got a 2mm increase, but my personal view is that wont really make much of a difference.

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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You know full well that power figures are meaningless on their own. You need to put them in context somehow and the only data that can be analysed is TSL's timing results, which brings into driver ability, gearing, aero, tyres, setup and power into the equation.

Unless there is something wrong with your car - have you checked that when the throttle pedal is pushed down as far as you go, that the throttle is actually opening fully? We had one Lancia racer come in complaining that the car wasn't as fast as the go-faster bits he'd fitted suggested it should be and that was the problem. Foot mashed to the floor, throttles opening 80%. Easy fix...
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Anson »

First of all a deristriced Renault with VVT is not going to push out anything over 200bhp. So the fear of an unrestricted Renault F4R being comparable in terms of power to the Honda K20 engine is not really valid.

Either way people are over reacting just because the Renault has a VVT system. It is not as effective or better than a Honda VTEC system. We are rev limited to 7250 rpm, not the crazy 8.5k plus of the VTEC.

A Formula Master is much more advanced than the Formula Renault, the only things that they share is the name Tatuus.

http://www.tatuus.it/master.php

Its a totally different car to the FR2000.[/quote]


Does the expression tongue in cheek mean anything to you?
This was not a serious request to let in the Formula Master, neither was it a request to let in the K20

Maybe I should ask for a dispensation for the new aluminium blocks they are making for the XE20 and maybe a stroker kit to 2.2ltr so that it can remain competitive against the Toyotas? Or since the Toyota is better, we could use the 42mm throttle bodies from AT Power? (if in doubt read the first couple of sentences again...)

Just get out there and drive your car, be the quickest Renault and then show that if wasn't for the general disadvantage of a Renault you would be winning, then you might have a valid case to argue.

My road car is a Clio 197 - is that not the same F4R engine? In road trim - wet sump, air con pump, big alternator etc giving 197ps. Don't tell me that dry sumped in a race car it will only gain 3ps......
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

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The intention typos to undermine my name are amusing! Philippi More is a funny guy.

I was third in 2009. I missed several meetings because we were learning the car and couldn't be bothered doing Anglesey, couldn't do the replacement Donington round, and another one I think. I forget which. We also tried, unsuccessfully, a different brand of tyres. At several races, on Avons, I was as quick as Jeremy.

I don't remember locking up and missing a gear at Thruxton and still catching Jeremy. I don't think I've locked my wheels in the Dallara in the dry yet. But I did mess up a pass (hit the rev limiter) on Jeremy, and then overcooked the chicane and did some flying. The race was over 200yds later. The camera failed, so the YouTube footage is all I have.

You did indeed pass me and my Reynard easily at Rockingham. I think that has more to do with it being my 3rd ever race and the Reynard being a slower car than a Dallara. Not sure what it adds to this discussion over than Philllip trying to look like better than he ever was.

Even with video evidence (I have nothing to hide) Phillllip still can't recall what happened in the races he refers to.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by Anson »

samier wrote:Quote deleted by Simon Davey

Phil - please do come out with the F304 with a road engine. And when you are building it, put it on injection instead of twin Webers or Dell'ortos. The price won't be much different when starting from scratch. I think new Webers are a couple of hundred quid cheaper but not a huge difference to injection and not much in the overall scheme of things. Especially as your road engine has to come out of a car built in the last century so you have to buy it from a scrap yard, then rebuild it, fit the dry sump kit, set it up on the dyno etc etc.

I think injection for the mono 2000 class is a good idea - a pain if you have to get rid of your carbs and start again but used webers hold their value. Starting from scratch not much difference in price.

I had a recent discussion with Nick Harrison on the merits of different packages and we agreen that the ideal mono car would be a Dallara F304 with a Toyota 3-SGE on injection. Phil - you are already most of the way there...

The difference in value between a 97 Dallara and a 2004 Dallara is a lot less than the cost of switching from carbs to injection.
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Re: 2000 restricters ?

Post by samier »

andrewcliffe wrote:You know full well that power figures are meaningless on their own. You need to put them in context somehow and the only data that can be analysed is TSL's timing results, which brings into driver ability, gearing, aero, tyres, setup and power into the equation.

Unless there is something wrong with your car - have you checked that when the throttle pedal is pushed down as far as you go, that the throttle is actually opening fully? We had one Lancia racer come in complaining that the car wasn't as fast as the go-faster bits he'd fitted suggested it should be and that was the problem. Foot mashed to the floor, throttles opening 80%. Easy fix...
No, the throttle opens 100%, I have taken it all apart and its all good.

If I get time before Snetterton, I am going to go to a reputable rolling road in Oxford and get 3 power runs, with a 35, 37 and non restricted. I will post them up here for all to see.

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